Der amerikanische Heimcomputer (Podcast auf englisch)

00:00:00: My name is Martin Wolff and I am the official podcast representative of Golem.de.

00:00:10: This podcast is the English original version of a talk with Richard Eske about his TRS-80.

00:00:15: We made a translated version with a machine learning tool.

00:00:18: This German version is available on the same platforms as this podcast.

00:00:22: It will be linked in the show notes as well.

00:00:25: My guest Richard Eske agreed to this experimental translation.

00:00:29: Hello and welcome to another episode.

00:00:33: Which is very strange for me to say this in English.

00:00:36: And I still haven't come to terms with that.

00:00:38: There are two episodes that are in English right now.

00:00:43: There's one about a Soviet computer with Eugene and the one we are recording right now.

00:00:48: Richard Eske.

00:00:49: Thank you for coming here.

00:00:52: And the point is Richard, because you obviously don't speak German so you didn't listen to

00:00:58: this podcast.

00:00:59: But I always start the podcast with saying, "Yeah, my name is that and that and I'm the

00:01:03: podcast by Auftraktor of Golem.de and I should be an English translation for that."

00:01:08: But I'm not sure if this is going to be a standard that we are doing English podcast.

00:01:13: So I'll give this to future Martin to take care of.

00:01:18: Richard, thank you for coming to my office and to talk about the TRS-80.

00:01:25: I met you at VCFB, which is the vintage computer festival Berlin a couple of weeks ago.

00:01:32: And I immediately, I was drawn to your desk when I saw this gray computer with something

00:01:41: that looked like a TV as a monitor.

00:01:46: And of course, it is a TRS-80, but as it is usually the case in Europe, I don't know

00:01:53: much about it.

00:01:55: So how did you get to see your first TRS-80 in the house?

00:02:01: What's the story behind it?

00:02:03: My first TRS-80 actually would be the bigger one that was there.

00:02:09: So I had three TRS-80s there.

00:02:15: There was the Model 1 and the Model 3 and then the Model 100 that I have.

00:02:20: I also have another one that would be the Cocoa 2 or the Color Computer 2 that is also

00:02:28: labeled as a TRS-80.

00:02:31: But that one actually is having problems, so I did not bring it.

00:02:37: But the TRS-80 that you're describing is the TRS-80 Model 1 and its monitor is a black

00:02:45: and white TV.

00:02:47: And is this computer actually the one that you got back then or did you have one?

00:02:54: So how did you start computing?

00:02:56: Oh, I started computing with a real computer.

00:03:00: It would be a Commodore 64.

00:03:02: That would be my first actual computer.

00:03:06: I've used Apple II's in the past, but that was for the classroom.

00:03:12: And I've used consoles or should say I've played on video game consoles the Atari 2600.

00:03:20: So I'm dating myself.

00:03:22: You do, but I played on the Atari 2600 as well and it was not in the 70s.

00:03:29: That's what I can say.

00:03:30: So we're talking, I think about the 80s or?

00:03:34: Yeah.

00:03:35: So one thing I have to say, you're from the US.

00:03:38: Yeah, I mean we have to say.

00:03:40: I am at this rate.

00:03:41: There is a difference.

00:03:42: Yeah, it come out of the US.

00:03:46: You started computing in the 80s in the US, but where did it take you from there?

00:03:51: A lot of places in the United States.

00:03:57: First it was computing in California.

00:04:00: Then I moved to New Mexico.

00:04:03: It's a Southwestern state.

00:04:06: And then from there, I should say while I was there in New Mexico, I was stayed.

00:04:11: I lived there for about 20, many years and graduated with a computer science degree and

00:04:19: then moved up to Seattle and I've worked with multiple companies all the way through.

00:04:24: So back in, back in New Mexico, I actually worked at Intel as a computer technician and

00:04:35: network guy.

00:04:37: And then in Seattle, I actually worked for backup administration with Amazon and then

00:04:47: I worked as Azure support.

00:04:50: So doing cloud computing for Microsoft directly.

00:04:55: Well, in the sense, I shouldn't say directly as a contractor.

00:04:59: So another company contracted my services to Microsoft.

00:05:04: I still was on Microsoft territory, I was property doing Microsoft's work directly.

00:05:11: So it says in your LinkedIn, which I put in the show notes, of course, a seasoned Linux

00:05:15: administrator with strong DevOps automation with Ansible and Python.

00:05:20: I understand the words A with and with.

00:05:25: Okay, I know what Linux is and I know what an administrator does, but DevOps, Ansible

00:05:30: and Python.

00:05:31: I know what Python is.

00:05:32: It's a snake.

00:05:33: Ansible is a configuration tool or configuration language and DevOps is development operations

00:05:43: and the idea is to have the ability to automate deploying, deploying computers or changing

00:05:53: computers.

00:05:54: So you have a company that has multiple, say 500 servers doing your work, but you want

00:06:00: to change that to something else.

00:06:03: Instead of doing each and every server to a specific point, you have programs to do

00:06:10: that.

00:06:11: So you have Ansible.

00:06:12: Ansible then reaches out to all those computers and changes the configuration programmically

00:06:19: where you actually just tell it to do its thing and it does it.

00:06:23: So I certainly heard the difference before, but I never dare to ask what it is.

00:06:29: Thank you for telling me.

00:06:30: And also you're at the moment you're looking for work as well.

00:06:35: Yes, I am.

00:06:37: So seasoned professional.

00:06:40: While I would say that I can understand some Deutsch, I would not.

00:06:47: Aber ich kann sprechen etwas Deutsch.

00:06:51: Mein Deutsch ist nicht toll.

00:06:58: Aber ich löhne mehr Deutsch und ich kann der DDoS verstehen.

00:07:17: At least verstehen, which is already 50 percent.

00:07:21: No, it's not 50 percent of the way there.

00:07:23: I think for you speaking people, the DDoS is like, that's a big hurdle to take.

00:07:28: So there's a reason why we do this podcast in English.

00:07:31: From now on, did you start collecting when you were still in the US?

00:07:36: Yes, that's one of the more expensive parts about moving to the US.

00:07:41: I would, yeah, I reckon that would be not so cheap.

00:07:44: So you brought the TRS80.

00:07:46: It's a real US American.

00:07:48: It is a US.

00:07:49: I was running a transformer while I was at the Berlin Festival.

00:07:58: I was using a large thousand or two thousand watt transformer and that I was powering everything

00:08:05: on.

00:08:06: Luckily, those computers were able to handle the 50 hertz that normally happen in Europe.

00:08:15: That's a thing that we don't.

00:08:17: I think sometimes we don't really appreciate the stuff we have right now.

00:08:22: I never have to care about anything of that anymore at all.

00:08:26: If I go to the US, I just take my usual stuff with me and I have a plug that adapts the

00:08:31: other.

00:08:32: Yeah, all the plug, most plugs these days have that ability to switch from the high voltage

00:08:37: to the low voltage automatically.

00:08:39: So even the smallest plug for your phone, the adapter, a power adapter is already set

00:08:45: for that.

00:08:46: The only thing you can do is just change the way that it's plugged in.

00:08:51: Yeah.

00:08:52: So let's get back to the 80s.

00:08:54: You had a C64, which I still, I always thought that the C64 was not that common in the US.

00:09:01: It was very common.

00:09:03: It was one of the big ones.

00:09:05: It was considered a, if not the biggest, it was one of the biggest in the 80s.

00:09:14: The Atari had the 400 and 800 and that was big, but it was starting to fall away a little

00:09:20: bit.

00:09:21: And then the Commodore 60, the Commodore Vic opened up cheap computers and then the

00:09:27: Commodore 64 just pretty much threw that door open.

00:09:33: Apples were too big, were too expensive to be completely a game machine or a machine

00:09:39: that you would give your kid.

00:09:41: But a Commodore was in that nice price point where you could do that.

00:09:46: As you're saying that, I remember that.

00:09:48: That's right.

00:09:49: There was a commercial with William Chetner of a star enterprise fame who praised the

00:10:00: Vic 20 as the wonder computer of the 80s, I guess.

00:10:04: When it first came out in the 1980, it was considered that way because it was one of

00:10:09: the first computers with actual graphics, this colored graphics cheap.

00:10:17: But we'll go back three years.

00:10:20: That is 1977.

00:10:22: There is the so-called 1977 Trinity, which is comprised of the Apple II, the TRS-80 and

00:10:33: the Commodore PET.

00:10:36: So if you could choose, which one would you, right now?

00:10:41: If I choose, I like the fact that the Apple had the high graphics.

00:10:49: You would have to put a lot more effort for the PET.

00:10:53: The PET actually, I think, didn't have any type of graphics outside of the Alpha Moneric.

00:10:58: And the TRS-80 had very blocky graphics.

00:11:03: And also it was only two colors while the Apple had 16 or six.

00:11:12: So it was more expensive, but it also did more.

00:11:17: It did.

00:11:19: And this Trinity, in a way, the kickstarted the home computer revolution because these

00:11:23: three were the first ones that came assembled and were ready to purchase in a shop, a normal

00:11:30: store.

00:11:31: You did not have to fiddle with any type of selections.

00:11:35: You did not have to work fiddle with ROM chips or any type.

00:11:40: You didn't have to install.

00:11:42: And you did not have to make them.

00:11:44: You did not have to actually solder them up, which the other ones you did if you wanted

00:11:50: to save money or you had to pay extra to have someone else do it for you.

00:11:55: So the other two, we can cover the two.

00:11:58: And the PET, which are like, if I go by looks, I would say the PET.

00:12:05: But on the other hand, the TRS-80 has a very distinct look, I would say.

00:12:13: It's, yeah, it's special.

00:12:17: So but we'll stick with the TRS-80.

00:12:20: Do you know the back story?

00:12:23: I mean, TRS stands for Tandy Radio Shack, which is already a thing.

00:12:29: On the forehand, I know the Tandy Taning Company got into with Radio Shack first.

00:12:38: So they bought the electronic company Tandy, sorry, Radio Shack and worked with a distribution

00:12:47: of electronics.

00:12:49: And then as technology advanced into the '70s, they saw an opportunity to put a lot of those

00:12:57: off-the-shelf components into a computer.

00:13:03: Because computers at the time of 1970, 1975, when they probably started to actually look

00:13:09: into it, they probably saw that, yeah, we could probably do this.

00:13:13: And then since they were already a company with resources, they could do it relatively

00:13:20: cheaply.

00:13:21: And that's what the big, big push for the TRS-80 Model 1 was it was cheap.

00:13:27: It was far cheaper.

00:13:28: I think it was like half the cost of a...

00:13:30: Welcome to the numbers.

00:13:31: I have them here.

00:13:32: Okay.

00:13:33: No, welcome to the, oh, the juicy numbers.

00:13:36: Welcome to them.

00:13:37: Okay, Radio Shack is a name that even for someone who's not fluent in English or whatever,

00:13:45: it's a strange name.

00:13:47: I mean, what even is a Radio Shack?

00:13:50: And it turns out a Radio Shack is where the radio is at.

00:13:55: The Ham Radio guys, mostly guys, I presume, in the early years of radio, like in the '20s

00:14:04: or whatever, there was a growing scene of amateur radio people.

00:14:11: And they were catered to by this company, which called itself after what they said,

00:14:19: where the radio station is, which is the Radio Shack.

00:14:22: So everybody knew, okay, this is where I can get my electronics fixed, whatever it is.

00:14:29: And then as you said, Tandy bought them and Tandy with a leather tanning cover.

00:14:34: It is a bit strange to have this...

00:14:37: Yes it is.

00:14:38: Because I'm sure you know that there's another leather company with their hands in microelectronics,

00:14:47: which is Colico.

00:14:48: Yeah.

00:14:49: Is that normal?

00:14:50: And you ask the leather company is doubling into microelectronics?

00:14:54: I don't know.

00:14:55: Obviously, I don't know.

00:14:57: But yeah, after thinking about it.

00:14:58: It is kind of interesting that you would have two leather companies get into electronics

00:15:06: about the same time and then produce computers.

00:15:11: It is strange.

00:15:12: And neither of their computers has a leather finish.

00:15:16: But that's a mischievous thing.

00:15:18: I mean, it could have been so nice.

00:15:21: I think they wanted to keep the prices down.

00:15:23: So I think having extra $100 in the leather, there might have also been heat issues.

00:15:31: I don't know.

00:15:32: Yeah, we'll never find out.

00:15:34: But what we can find out is the story behind the T-S80.

00:15:38: There is a funny story about the way they introduced it to the higher ups.

00:15:44: Do you know about this?

00:15:46: How it came to be?

00:15:48: Not entirely, no.

00:15:49: Anyways, I did some research before this podcast and I found this story about how they, one

00:15:57: of the sales guys, what's the opposite?

00:16:01: What's the research?

00:16:02: Do you have like a researcher?

00:16:04: No, if you have like such a big electronics, I don't know, chain, they have like a person

00:16:11: that looks into stuff that is too, yeah, the buyer.

00:16:13: Okay, so it's that easy.

00:16:15: There's one of those buyers and he's meeting with other people and then they go, yeah,

00:16:20: wouldn't that be nice to have a computer kid?

00:16:24: Because they saw that this is a thing and the homebrew computer club, which was a thing

00:16:28: then.

00:16:29: And there was one of those homebrew guys called Steve Leininger, who obviously was very talented

00:16:37: in developing ideas for turning this into a real product.

00:16:43: Because there's one thing to say, okay, we are like an electronics chain and we can do

00:16:47: all that, we have the parts, but you have to have the knowledge to put this together.

00:16:51: And he said, wouldn't it be nice to have like a computer that isn't a kid that is all put

00:16:56: together already?

00:16:58: That was the trend in the late seventies.

00:17:01: And they did with not a lot of money.

00:17:06: It is there is one number and it is 150,000 US dollars for like the development of the

00:17:13: whole computer, which is a astonishing deal.

00:17:17: But yeah, yeah, I remember millions being stories of millions being sent to Atari for

00:17:27: its 2600 million, so much so that they actually had to get investment from Time Warner for

00:17:36: the Atari 2600 because they needed that much research to see that the TRS-80, I knew it

00:17:44: felt like the TRS-80 came across as something cobbled together and thrown up oddly enough

00:17:51: similar to the original IBMs actually, because those were very much just thrown together

00:17:57: and then have a BIOS.

00:18:00: But that's essentially what happened here.

00:18:01: I could see is that they had a very simple, they had a Z80 memory in this case, I think

00:18:08: four kilobytes, a total for the first, a very basic ROM that could fit and then just put

00:18:17: it into a plastic case.

00:18:19: And they had the means of production, which Atari probably didn't have in that, or I

00:18:26: mean they had probably all the components that they needed already on shelves.

00:18:31: Which Atari didn't have, they have to buy everything.

00:18:34: And when RadioShake probably had, which brings us to the monitor, which is a good, that's

00:18:41: a good point, how they used already existing technology that they had to put this computer

00:18:49: together because the monitor was just a TV without the tuner.

00:18:53: I actually opened up the one that I had.

00:18:56: I recently picked up the power supply to it.

00:18:59: So at that festival, our at that meetup was really the first time I turned it on and left

00:19:08: it on for any length of time.

00:19:10: I did open it up and dust out to keep that TV and looked at it, make sure that the capacitors

00:19:19: didn't have any issues or anything like that.

00:19:21: It was just, but that would be the first time.

00:19:24: And it handled itself very well.

00:19:27: But I could see where a tuner would be because they had the cutouts for the dials in the

00:19:35: back and the, in those times you had full dials to turn on and so you had the volume control

00:19:41: and you had the dial and then maybe you would use UV.

00:19:44: UHF?

00:19:45: Yeah, UHF and so forth.

00:19:47: And you would have to kind of click to the right one.

00:19:51: If you know what to look for, you'll see it because I will link a picture of one in the

00:19:55: show notes, of course, you'll see that the actual screen is not centered, which is very

00:20:00: unusual for computer screen because there's no reason to not make a center.

00:20:05: But if it's a TV, which has obviously a speaker on the right or the left side, in this case

00:20:10: on the right side, then not, yeah, it's not centered.

00:20:13: So yeah, we'll put that in the show notes.

00:20:17: Even in the 70s, actually, black and white TVs or a commodity and they were very cheap

00:20:23: because the electronics were simple.

00:20:25: The color TVs were in force.

00:20:31: But you could with a simple black and white screen, you can make the computer and this

00:20:37: is essentially what they did.

00:20:39: So we're still in the 70s and the construction, yeah, the project TRS80 is underway.

00:20:47: So it was all, it was greenlit and they put it all together and they had a, do you know

00:20:54: the story about the first, the presentation to the higher ups?

00:20:58: Must have been interesting.

00:20:59: It is, it is.

00:21:01: They showed it to Charles David Tandy.

00:21:06: Okay, so one of the Tandy's.

00:21:08: And that was, yeah, as the name suggests, it's like one of the really the bosses of the corporations.

00:21:15: And they showed it with then tax accounting program because it should have some use.

00:21:20: I mean, yeah, that wouldn't show a simple this guy, but you know, everybody's got to

00:21:25: the Texas.

00:21:26: So in, and one of the points, of course, is you have to enter your salary, which he did,

00:21:34: which let the program to crash because the salary was over 150,000.

00:21:41: It was 16 bit integer and they ask him, okay, it's okay to earn that much money, but for

00:21:49: the computer would be good if you could only have 32,000 a year of income.

00:21:56: So which he, yeah, he agreed not to have that less income, but he agreed to type it in and

00:22:02: then it worked.

00:22:03: And yeah, they got it out the door.

00:22:06: I don't know where this anecdote is from.

00:22:08: I'll try to put a link in the description.

00:22:11: I'm not sure if it's accurate, but it's very nice.

00:22:13: And I mean, yeah, it sounds interesting.

00:22:15: Yeah, it does.

00:22:17: So they were estimating how much, how many computers will they sell?

00:22:24: I mean, there was no, there was no, there was no precedent to that.

00:22:30: In the 1970s, especially if it was 77, the others no precedent because those three in

00:22:37: the original triumph and that was it.

00:22:41: Because I think Atari's computers came out in 1979.

00:22:47: So these three were it.

00:22:49: These were the first three.

00:22:52: So they thought, I mean, the guys who French was the one of, one was called Mr. French.

00:23:00: He was from Radio Shack and the Nininja was the one who came from the Homebrew Computer

00:23:04: Club and they were very optimistic.

00:23:07: They said, we could do 50,000.

00:23:09: But the executives thought, nah, come on, a thousand to 3000.

00:23:15: That is what we said.

00:23:17: Then one of them told them, okay, so let's do three and a half thousand because that

00:23:24: is the amount of stores we have.

00:23:26: So even if they're not sold, the store can use them for accounting, which would be good,

00:23:32: wouldn't it be?

00:23:33: So they said, okay, we'll do.

00:23:36: Now what happened was that 15,000 people in the first days of the announcement called

00:23:41: Radio Shack to purchase a tier 80.

00:23:45: The whole telephone line went blacked out.

00:23:49: I can see that.

00:23:50: That could be funny.

00:23:51: It's definitely the...

00:23:53: In the first one and a half months, they sold over 10,000 and over 200,000 during the product's

00:23:59: lifetime, which is quite a lot for this time, I think.

00:24:05: For the 1970s because actually that's Apple II numbers is in that realm.

00:24:12: If you're selling hundreds of thousands, that's what the Apple II.

00:24:15: No, that's the part where I go with the numbers.

00:24:19: Now the tier is 80 at first.

00:24:23: The price for a kit, obviously they had like a kit, but it was not expected that many people

00:24:29: buy it.

00:24:30: It was 399, which is $2,000 today.

00:24:34: The normal one with the monitor and the tape recorder, which is of course necessary to

00:24:40: get data in and out of this thing, was 599, which is $3,116.59 in two days, which is...

00:24:52: Yeah, we have November 24, which would in Germany have amounted to over 7,000,000

00:25:02: in German and German.

00:25:06: So you can immediately see why it took so long for Germany to catch up with computers.

00:25:15: The exchange rate for the US currency for the dollar was so high that the prices were

00:25:22: up in the sky.

00:25:23: I'll give you another example because this is...

00:25:26: I love it.

00:25:27: The Apple II, which was the most expensive of them.

00:25:31: It was the premium.

00:25:32: Yeah, that was in dollars.

00:25:35: It was 1,298 at launch, which amounts to over $6,700 today, and it amounted to a staggering

00:25:49: 15,600 Deutschmarks.

00:25:53: Now a VW Kaffer or a Beetle, as you might call it, in 1977, in the Cabrio version, which

00:26:03: is the better one with a cigarette lighter as a standard, which is the better one, would

00:26:09: have cost you 13,255 Deutschmarks.

00:26:14: There you go.

00:26:15: That's an Apple computer for you in 1977.

00:26:18: So just to put this into perspective, why didn't the Germans have computers when the

00:26:26: US people had it in the end of the '70s and the beginning of the '80s?

00:26:30: It is really...

00:26:31: It is the currency.

00:26:32: It was difficult to get a computer for that sum of money.

00:26:40: If you say it's even complicated in the US because there was no precedent and people

00:26:44: didn't know what to expect, imagine the situation in Europe.

00:26:48: It was even worse.

00:26:51: So I already mentioned that it sold very well.

00:26:56: Are there other reasons that come to mind why it would have been successful?

00:27:02: RadioShack itself.

00:27:04: They owned this distribution.

00:27:08: They owned RadioShack so they could send them to those shops and the shops, and then they

00:27:14: could buy them also because RadioShack had all the electronics and was a big player in

00:27:20: the electronics.

00:27:21: The people that would gravitate who would want to buy a computer already are going to

00:27:26: these shops.

00:27:28: So finding a computer that costs half as much or more half the than say an Apple II would

00:27:34: probably go for that, especially if they were thinking of business-related items.

00:27:40: I mean, the reason why I picked the Apple II is because of the graphics.

00:27:45: However, if I was after an accountant or doing job or work, then it becomes much harder

00:27:51: to say whether you want it or not because they both blip and the graphics that you do

00:28:00: get are functional.

00:28:02: They're black and white and you can also see how the numbers have the killer app as Apple

00:28:15: II would say would be the quick calc.

00:28:19: Yeah, supercalc, no, what was it?

00:28:22: One of the cafe owners.

00:28:23: Yeah, essentially the spreadsheet.

00:28:25: And the spreadsheet can also be put on all the, it could be on the pet, it could be on

00:28:32: the Aterozade as well.

00:28:35: You would need to have some extra memory to it.

00:28:39: But yeah, you could run that as well.

00:28:42: And putting a memory after the fact is also quite possible.

00:28:46: And you had an adapter that would give you extra memory.

00:28:53: So instead of saying 4K, you could have 20K.

00:28:58: And then you can do basic Excel spreadsheets and ledgering and such.

00:29:06: And there is also some technology.

00:29:08: I could have brought, I have a suite, I have an accounting software package.

00:29:14: While it's not leather bound, it has fall, it has the soft vinyl to it.

00:29:23: And it's three.

00:29:24: That you can squeeze, there's the vinyl stuff where there's foam inside and you can squeeze.

00:29:30: So not quite leather bound, but it's definitely trying to imitate it.

00:29:35: The next best thing.

00:29:36: Yeah, it's trying to imitate it.

00:29:38: Three volumes.

00:29:40: Has all the software that I want, everything.

00:29:43: Is it on disk or is it on tape?

00:29:44: I think it's on disk.

00:29:47: It definitely would come in later.

00:29:49: So I could apply it to the TRS-80 Model 3 that I have.

00:29:56: And that one has a, that one still has the same tube as the Model 1.

00:30:02: It's TV, but it's now a tube that's inside.

00:30:06: We should get to the follow-up generations, but we need to do some of the specifications.

00:30:13: You already mentioned it.

00:30:14: The standard configuration was four kilobytes, which is, if you hear it today, it's absolutely

00:30:19: meager, but memory was very expensive.

00:30:23: Yes, it was.

00:30:24: Extremely expensive and the prices were falling fast.

00:30:27: So like, I mean, three, four years later, that would have been.

00:30:32: Three or four years later, you had the VIC-20 with 16K.

00:30:39: Four times for less than that.

00:30:40: And then even a year or two later, you would have the Commodore 64 with 64 active memory.

00:30:50: This was, would have been astronomically expensive in the '77.

00:30:54: 64 kilobytes would have the prices skyrocketing.

00:31:01: So four kilobytes, which was respectable.

00:31:03: You had, as mentioned, a cassette interface where you could store and load programs.

00:31:10: You had this monochrome monitor, which had 64 by 16 text mode.

00:31:16: So that is that.

00:31:19: And you had a Xiloc Z80, Z80.

00:31:22: There is the American for you.

00:31:26: It's called the Z80.

00:31:27: However, it could be called the Z80 as well.

00:31:31: But that's more of an English term, but it's in America, it's usually called the Z80.

00:31:36: I think the Z80, she has a better way to say it, but that's beside the point.

00:31:40: Okay, the point is 1.77 megahertz, which is not bad at all.

00:31:48: And yeah, and you had basic in ROM, which is a big selling point, I think.

00:31:53: Yeah, it was, because a lot of, even later companies had basic in a tape or a cassette.

00:32:01: You mentioned the Coleco.

00:32:02: Well, their computer Coleco Atom, you had to install the, you had to run the basic off

00:32:09: of the tape.

00:32:11: So I mean all of the three of the Trinity they had basic, I guess Apple, no, didn't Apple

00:32:18: have to deliver it afterwards?

00:32:23: There might have been a glitch, but it had, it had similar basic in the sense that it

00:32:29: was an integer basic.

00:32:31: Both the TR-Z80 and the Apple II had a basic basic, which didn't have a whole, it didn't

00:32:41: have the floating point, because that took a lot of space.

00:32:45: So it dealt with integer math, like you said, the 16-bit integer map.

00:32:48: So you can only have values to 65,000.

00:32:55: So when it came to doing in a floating point,

00:33:01: You usually needed 32 bits or essentially double that.

00:33:06: And you also needed the mechanisms and the routines to use actual floating point.

00:33:12: That took up much more space. So when they did bring out new stuff or since they upgraded

00:33:21: of the basic level two, I think it was 12 kilobytes for it. But that had that had the

00:33:29: ability to handle 32 bit floating point, which most of the basics in that 8 bit era had.

00:33:37: And you could still work with 32 bit floating point. But these days you can go up to absurd

00:33:43: floating point, but I'm digressing again. Yeah, there's no context of today's.

00:33:48: You can't really compare any of that to today's computers. That would have been, yeah.

00:33:56: So you could expand this by later buying an expansion interface, which looks very

00:34:04: computer-y, like it is like a box, gray silver appeal, I think.

00:34:11: Yeah, that was the that was the big thing for them was the gray silver.

00:34:14: You put it under the monitor and it looks good. And it does have a floppy disk controller,

00:34:18: an expansion port, a serial port. You could put RAM into that up to 32K.

00:34:24: You had signals, it says signals for a real time clock. I don't know what you would need

00:34:31: a real time clock for. There's actually a reason because of the whole Radio Shack time with the

00:34:38: electronics. They actually did a lot of home automation early. You talk about smart homes

00:34:45: and figuring things out and timing everything. That was done with Radio Shack equipment.

00:34:53: Then, so 1970s, now it was very basic and you didn't have any type of feedback. It was all just

00:35:00: timers, essentially. But you could make a timer for your for heaters, for lights, all of that back

00:35:10: in the 80s, in 1980s. Imagine that you have a TRS80 and you start home automation in the 80s.

00:35:20: I mean, in 1978, 79, that would be, I mean, yeah, talking about cutting edge. I mean,

00:35:31: really, that is a whole different level of... And you can time it and you can sequence it.

00:35:37: I actually have a couple of books on the interface scene, the TRS80 to various tools.

00:35:45: There was also a lot of books on doing it with other computers, but there is a really,

00:35:49: because again, it has the Radio Shack angle or the Radio Shack source. So it was already geared for

00:35:59: using those electronics with it. Now, I won't say it was compatible because you had to

00:36:08: actually do your own soldering, but there was more cross-pollination, if you can understand the term,

00:36:17: where you're in the store, you have it, and then you have these components, and then you can find

00:36:23: the books for these components to work with it. So, while you can't just simply plug it in and go,

00:36:29: you can find the resources necessary to do it anyway.

00:36:36: As you're an American and as you no doubt have been in a Radio Shack store in your life,

00:36:42: yeah, I have. Do you remember how it was when you first came into such a store? What does it feel?

00:36:48: Or what did it feel like? Oh, interesting mix, because the stories that I remember,

00:36:54: the first half is for the consumer. So this is where you would have your...

00:37:00: You would have your general purpose items, your stereos, your various tools,

00:37:08: and remote control cars. They were very big on remote control cars. They had it every...

00:37:15: That was the big thing when I remember. But in the later part, or certainly in the back of the store,

00:37:23: away from all the stereos and such, you had the raw electronics. So you would have the chips,

00:37:32: the resistors. You would have all of the basic electronics that you wanted. You might have some

00:37:39: kits, but this is where, if you needed to get it apart, you would get from there. So the Radio

00:37:47: Shack was sort of these sort of mix of, at least in the later years, was a mix of the easy to get

00:37:56: straight, you just simply buy and go and take home to the electronics that you wanted. There was a

00:38:02: little bit of a premium, because it was all nice and packaged and it had the brand name.

00:38:07: I mean, you could always go to a distributor or a non-Radio Shack branded electronic shop.

00:38:17: And then buy direct that way. Usually get better prices, but you won't get the brand name.

00:38:23: And then you'll get some things that are sort of in the middle.

00:38:27: But Radio Shack, I remember, had the electronic toys, had the remote control cars. That was one

00:38:39: of the big places where you can get half decent electronics. You can get some very cheap stuff,

00:38:46: or you can get some fairly expensive remote control cars there. You also had stereo equipment and,

00:38:55: of course, TVs. I mean, it's interesting because they seem to still then have cater to the like the

00:39:02: ham radio crowd and all the people who just wanted to tinker with electronics at all, which is not

00:39:09: how you would imagine a contemporary media on market or whatever we have now, which is quite

00:39:18: different. Even a cable runs you like a triple of what it should cost. And a cable is like,

00:39:25: a cable is already like advanced stuff that's already considered something that is advanced.

00:39:34: A cable, you get a hummer cable for a hummer couple for 10 euros or something like that.

00:39:44: Yeah, there you go. And that's already the advanced stuff. I'm not talking about soldering

00:39:48: stations or components. Oh, no, you'll never see that. A cable is already like, and it's been

00:39:54: like that for quite a while. I remember that even in the 2000s, like the most advanced thing that

00:40:02: you could ask where is a specialized printer cable or something, there's no, you know, you can't buy

00:40:07: like, I don't know, like boards or stuff to solder something right there. I can't imagine.

00:40:17: I can't remember any of those. You have, well, yeah, media more had the CDs, you had the

00:40:26: appliances, you had a lot of coffee makers. A lot of that's right. And you had the photos, you had the

00:40:33: it felt more like a Sears or essentially department if it's a department store, maybe more electronics.

00:40:42: Yeah, maybe my comparison is wrong because we had of course, we had stores like that in Germany too.

00:40:47: They were called Conrad and Rachel. And they were. Yeah, I heard about this. I would like to go back

00:40:52: to it. I would like to go to a Conrad's if they're still around. I guess that they're all closed

00:40:56: right now. I think I read the news on golem.de, which we should mention right here right now,

00:41:03: that the last ones are closed too. But I would have seen one. I would like to have seen one.

00:41:10: Yeah, I don't know, but Berlin did have at least one. I don't know. I'm still, I would like to find it.

00:41:16: I would like to find a good, a good electronic store in Berlin.

00:41:21: Hints about this and also future guests and topics to golem, no, to podcast@golem.de, please.

00:41:31: Now, back to the, to the story of the TRS80. So it did start pretty well and then it

00:41:38: did continue to do well. So well, in fact, that there were successors. As you said, there was a

00:41:45: there, you said you have a three. So that probably was a two. So what? Yeah, the two, okay, the,

00:41:50: the model three is essentially a model one with the memory. So it has 48 kilobytes set of four.

00:42:00: It has the basic level two. So it had the floating point. It has a built-in monitor,

00:42:08: which is still the same monitor as the level. It's the TV, but it's just the tube this time.

00:42:14: The tube and some of the D, some of the electronics to deconstruct, but

00:42:19: and it has two floppy disks were five and a quarter or essentially the standard five and a

00:42:26: quarter Stuttgart design. Now the model two had less memory. I think it was 32 kilobytes,

00:42:34: but had eight inch Stuttgart derives. And then there was the model four, which I think had

00:42:43: refinements and also I think a high def, a high definition graphics, something that was lacking

00:42:50: with the other models. They, they had fairly simple. So it was 128 by 48 pixels that you can get

00:43:02: access to. While more common machines, especially when the 80s started to come around had like 192

00:43:11: or 256 or 300 versus, so the graphics needed to be improved. So that's where the model four came

00:43:18: into be. There was also the color computers, which already had essentially those were the

00:43:26: home lines for more gameplay for the gamer that would essentially compete against the common or

00:43:33: 64 and the common or VIX. So were they compatible? No, of course. The 80s we were talking about,

00:43:43: of course they're not compatible. Back, yeah, the eight bit era of computers,

00:43:49: there was very little direct compatibility. Even between typical machines, you're, you actually

00:43:59: have examples right here. You have a Commodore 64 or 128 and then you have a, oh, I wish it was a

00:44:07: 28, but it's a 128. It's a Commodore 64. And you have the plus four and you have the Commodore 16.

00:44:14: They're not compatible. Same company and almost the same look. No, okay, okay. You got me there.

00:44:23: You got me there. But they are not called, they are not called C16 model one, two and three.

00:44:31: They have different names and you, those are, those are compatible. Now the, the models,

00:44:38: the commoners, the TIRS 80 is compatible. Model one, model two, model three, model four are

00:44:44: compatible. It was the, when I introduced the color computer, the cocoa, I'll say, that's not

00:44:50: compatible because it uses a completely different architecture and actually a different processor

00:44:57: entirely. But it's not the nice pretty, or I should say the black and white ones that I have.

00:45:04: But the model two looks also does look, it looks entirely different than the model one. It looks

00:45:12: much, I would say, sleeker, but I'm not sure what, what they were going for with this one. It has the,

00:45:20: the, the TV style aesthetics with the non centered screen. But on the right, there is a disk drive,

00:45:28: which makes sense, I guess. And then you have a separate keyboard, which does it house the computer,

00:45:34: the keyboard? Is it in the, the, if in the model three that I have, no, it does not.

00:45:43: The computer is actually in the back of the screen of the screen. The model one, it is.

00:45:52: It's very similar. The model one in the model and the commoner 34 are very close in the sense of the

00:45:59: form in that you have a keyboard above the computer. So in the model one, it is there. It is above the

00:46:08: computer. So you, you would be typing essentially on the computer itself. The model two, I'm unsure.

00:46:16: It could be using a line, essentially a very thick cable that goes to the machine. I suspect

00:46:26: that they might be doing the same thing with the model as the model three and have the computer in

00:46:30: the back and then just have a wire that goes to the keyboard. We had the TRS 80. We had the TRS

00:46:39: 80 models that followed none of them, none of which to my knowledge came to Europe with any success.

00:46:46: Did they? I don't recall. The TRS 80s actually aren't well known even in the United States. They,

00:46:55: they came, they were superseded by Commodore and by the Apple and the IBM. They were still around

00:47:04: in the late 80s, but because Tandy switched over to the IBMs with the Tandy 1000 and its brand,

00:47:16: the, the, the predecessor or in this case, the TRS 80s fell away. They, and they were never really

00:47:27: loved. They were convenient in the sense that they were cheap. They did the job, but no one had

00:47:36: the love or the, they didn't have the passion that some of the others did because you had the

00:47:45: Commodore and you had, which was fairly passionate for a lot of people because it was their first

00:47:50: computer. It was also gaming computers. So the kids like myself would gravitate to the Commodore

00:47:57: even though you kind of took it, you look at basics and Commodore 64 basic was terrible,

00:48:04: but you didn't have that sort of emotional tie with the TRS 80. And then when the, as you would

00:48:12: with the Apple too, now I think the Apple too had a little bit more because you had,

00:48:17: you essentially had jobs in Wozniak and you also paid this, this very high amount for this,

00:48:25: this pretty thing. So you kind of felt like you had to fight for it.

00:48:28: Also it had a lot going for it. Like the already, you already mentioned it, it had expansion

00:48:36: capability. It was a really good computer that it shouldn't be under a same age.

00:48:41: Back to the TRS 80. Sure, sure. You said software. Now what we skipped was games?

00:48:48: Are there any games? I think good games. There are some good games. There's also some

00:48:53: demonstration games. There was one called the Dancing Demon. That's considered one of the more

00:49:00: favorite that I see a lot in the chats because I think it has some of the better animation.

00:49:09: There was actually a Flight Simulator too. That actually did 3D graphics. So while you couldn't

00:49:16: have the detail, say with the Apple too, you did have that. There were some graphics like that.

00:49:24: Then pretty much all the text games, so like the Zorks definitely were moved over

00:49:33: because that's relatively easy to do. So text based games, Infocom probably was there.

00:49:40: What other ones? Most, but there really wasn't a whole lot of games on the TRS 80s themselves.

00:49:49: That was moved over to the color computers. Those are worth a lot of the games that were played.

00:49:56: So you would have your munchers and so forth. Now there were some games that were brought back,

00:50:02: but games were never a thing for the TRS 80. It was never considered a game machine.

00:50:10: It was a very business-oriented machine. Okay, so this is probably also a reason, as you said,

00:50:19: for it being a more obscure and forgotten computer because you don't have emotional ties to it.

00:50:27: If you don't have emotional ties to it, and it's just a small computer from the beginning of the

00:50:31: 80s, I mean it obviously sold reasonably well. It's made an impact for at least for its company,

00:50:40: for RadioShack to continue producing computers. You said they transitioned to PC compatibles,

00:50:47: and they also removed RadioShack from the name. There's one, I mean, I don't know if it's true,

00:50:56: but one take on that is that they wanted to get rid of the name RadioSkrap or TRS 80,

00:51:05: which were synonyms for these computers. Right, because they didn't have the personal or the

00:51:12: public view that, say, the Atari or the Commodore had. The TRS 80 is a common trope, because it

00:51:22: didn't have the pretty graphics, it didn't have the look, and it was considered a subcom...

00:51:30: I should say, not a substandard computer. Even though it worked perfectly fine, it had all the

00:51:36: necessary tools to do it, and for a business owner, it can do a lot. And of course, it did

00:51:42: something that most of the others didn't do, and that was the home automation side of things,

00:51:47: because of its tie with RadioShack. Yeah, they liked it. Actually, the Tandies for a while

00:51:52: actually proved very useful. The Tandy 1000, the PC compatibles, they were actually pushing

00:51:59: things a little. They pushed some of the boundaries, because the IBM, at the time, the IBM PC

00:52:06: didn't have great graphics, didn't have any of that, but the Tandy 1000 did. That's why you have

00:52:14: the Tandy standard. When you look at early PC graphics, you'll see Tandy there. That's because

00:52:22: Tandy pushed for more colors in this 320, this space that usually is with the CGA. It went past that,

00:52:35: and was considered a viable option for computer graphics in the early 80s with the

00:52:44: IBM compatibles. Before we come to the model that you brought with you, because of course,

00:52:52: you couldn't bring the model one with you for a legability reason, I would say. I would say

00:53:01: you do have one with you. But before we come to that, a final thing. So if someone who's listening

00:53:08: to this podcast wants to relive the TRS80 days, what are the options today? Obviously, you said

00:53:16: you brought yours from the US. If, for example, me, I will go to Las Vegas in January, if I could

00:53:23: pick up one and bring it here, it would be even though, even if someone would give the computer

00:53:28: to me for free, it would be very, very expensive to get it here. The shipping would be high.

00:53:36: 150 to 200 euros, just to ship. So, and we already established that there is probably not a high,

00:53:44: there's not a high chance to find one used on eBay in Europe, or is there?

00:53:52: Well, let me put it, let me say one thing about that. Okay. The power supply that I got for my

00:53:59: model one, the one that I just found is a European plug. So they're out there somewhere.

00:54:08: They're out there somewhere. If you are interested in hunting in Moundown, I suspect you could find

00:54:14: one. I see one. I see one on eBay. Yeah. It's 200 euros and it's just the keyboard. Yeah. And then

00:54:20: you just simply have to hook it up. But that what you might have to have an interface. I don't know

00:54:27: if that's, if it's the keyboard or if it's the model one, because there is an interface, it is

00:54:34: needed, it does need to be tied to the monitor. Then I see a user manual for 40 euros. So if you

00:54:43: don't have anything, you at least have that. But what are the real options right now? Is there

00:54:48: emulation? Yes, there is. There is definitely a lot of emulation for that. So you can go in and

00:54:53: check things out. I'm thinking about I might use an emulator just to program some basic,

00:54:59: because it's the, the editing on computer is interesting, because that doesn't allow you to

00:55:09: edit at all the places, but you can edit the line, a line of code. And it is very deep in the sense

00:55:20: that you have a lot of controls in that editing. But it is very, if you do not have a manual,

00:55:28: it is very confusing and becomes a problem. So the 40 euros are probably justified for the manual?

00:55:36: I don't know. So is there anything, if you have such a computer, some computers, they have known

00:55:42: weak spots. They know the capacitors are all, you know, is there something like that that is known

00:55:50: to you? Not that I know of for the capacitor. It's not, I haven't seen any weak capacitors.

00:55:56: So you didn't have to do any maintenance on your models because they just turned on?

00:56:03: Yeah, they returned on. I could check, I could check the, I mean, all the capacitors definitely leak

00:56:08: over time. I probably could spend like a freaking, like a half a year or four years just replacing

00:56:15: the capacitors and all the systems that I have. But there are some, there are cases like the Amiga,

00:56:20: I think it's 600 and 1200 where you have to, where you have to swap a lot of parts because

00:56:30: they're known to all break down. So this is like a replacement on 1200. I have a 1200,

00:56:37: I made a 1200. And yes, I had to replace all the capacitors. So that's what I mean. That's more

00:56:42: like the kind of thing that I mean, but if there is no such weak spot, then all the better.

00:56:47: I don't think so. Yeah, great. Yeah. They weren't cutting as many, I guess the components were

00:56:55: better built back then. I don't know, you could, you can make that assumption.

00:56:58: Yeah. Yeah. On the other hand, there are these notorious reefer classitors, which definitely

00:57:08: are. Yes. Thank you for reminding me about the reefer's. So because I did replace them on my

00:57:14: TRS-80 model three, because the power supplies, while the rest of the power supply is fine,

00:57:22: the reefer's definitely because I could see the cracking. So I replaced those,

00:57:29: friend of them. I forgot about that. Thank you. You're welcome. Yeah. The reefer's,

00:57:34: you probably could get away with not having them there, but I had a friend who had some. So

00:57:39: I asked for it. Now we come to the first computer that we mentioned, the first TRS-80 that we

00:57:46: mentioned in this podcast an age ago, when we started it, it is the TRS-80 model 100. And I said,

00:57:54: it's neither TRS nor is it 80. I said it's not TRS because it's actually a model from a Japanese

00:58:03: company called Kyocera. And it's not 80 because it doesn't have the Z80 in it, but it has like

00:58:11: CPU in it that has an 80 in it. It seems to be an Intel 8085, which is a strange.

00:58:19: That sounds like an Intel. Like that's a strange chip. So it's a portable computer. And not only

00:58:25: that, it's really, it is really portable. It's pocketable even. It is, I think you could, yeah,

00:58:31: you could have like maybe in a backpack. Yeah. Yeah, like that's what I mean. Yeah. So it is,

00:58:37: it is very light. It is, I am like holding it right now and I have, you can hold it in one hand.

00:58:43: It is, ah, it is a overly thick iPad. It's essentially, you could say that. Yeah. It's a

00:58:54: very thick iPad with a keyboard. And it is, it's a bit heavier than my very lightweight normal

00:59:01: notebook with 1.3 kilograms. That is not much. I guess that's a lot better. I feel like this would

00:59:09: be close to about just just a kilo. But okay, okay, I'm just reading what that says here. And it's,

00:59:16: it's running on four AA batteries, which is, which is amazing for next to 20 hours. Yeah.

00:59:24: For about 20 hours. It's that there are no, the LED or say the display is very classic LCD.

00:59:34: Non-backlit. Yeah. Non-backlit. It is, it has the standard LCD ghosting. You can change the

00:59:46: contrast, but, but yeah, it just, it, it was very good for reporters back in the, in the 1980s,

00:59:59: because they could carry it around and then type in their correspondence and then has an RS232 port,

01:00:06: so it could, they could send that information out. And it also has a good T-bar. Yeah. It has a nice

01:00:15: there you go. It has a very nice physical keyboard, the, the mechanical keyboards that

01:00:22: everybody likes to talk about. Now, and if we said that the Tendi, the, the TRS80, the original was

01:00:29: a success, this one was even more because it was sold under different brands. They shipped

01:00:37: around 6 million of them in, in total worldwide, which means in opposition to the TRS80 that we

01:00:46: talked about in this podcast, you can actually go and buy one right now for not a whole lot of

01:00:52: money. I mean, everything is expensive today if it's retro, but it's possible to find one of these

01:00:57: and they usually work and it's, I think it's a nice, like, yeah, it's a nice. If you wanted to get

01:01:05: into that, this is probably a very good start. You don't have to, you don't have to worry about

01:01:10: Hertz or voltages too much. All you have to do is pop in some batteries.

01:01:18: You will have to deal with cassettes or find a way to get data in and out of it. However,

01:01:27: that's all. Now, there are some caveats. One of them is this computer cannot count

01:01:36: above the year 2000. So whatever you, you, you should make sure that it happens before the year

01:01:43: 2000, which is like generally a good kind of advice, I think. I could see it having the problem

01:01:52: that would be built, baked into the raw, but it does have the ability to have extra ROMs. There

01:01:58: is a switch. It also comes with basics. So it's a computer that you can, yeah, you can get some

01:02:07: basic skills. And it is in a certain point, it has some historic value in Germany because there was

01:02:16: a, a hack in the 80s. It's called the BTX hack. Have you ever heard of that?

01:02:22: No, I haven't.

01:02:23: There was a kind of online service that the Deutsche Post had. It was called BTX for built

01:02:32: chump text, like screen text. And you could log in. And the CCC, the hacking club in Germany,

01:02:42: they wanted to prove that it is unsafe so that you can hack into it and you can read personal

01:02:47: data, which the post set isn't possible. But they, yeah, they obviously they, they managed to,

01:02:55: to get into the account of a bank, but not in their banking account, but into their BTX account.

01:03:04: And then they had like, they had the bank call their website, whatever it is called, like the

01:03:11: site that they had, which was billing them for 999 every time. So, and that, there was,

01:03:19: there was a point in the whole hack where this had to be automated. The bank had to, you know,

01:03:25: automatically. And that was done with a TRS 80, model 100, which I never knew, but I found out,

01:03:33: doing the research for this episode. It's strange. Okay, Richard, thank you so much for being here

01:03:42: and talking with me about the TRS 80. Thank all of you for listening so long to us. I don't know

01:03:49: how long the spot guys is. I don't know. We'll have a last coffee today, I think. And if you want

01:03:56: to meet Richard, you're probably, you'll be on the next vintage computing festival. Oh, yeah,

01:04:02: is that? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I'm a regular at our monthly and bi-monthly meeting, virtual meets.

01:04:11: We do a, a, a virtual meet where essentially a bunch of us, us friends get together and just hang

01:04:20: out. We do old computers. Literally, actually tomorrow, we plan to, I plan to go down to a

01:04:28: place called elab or Berlin creators. And that is where we just simply put together old computers

01:04:38: and just play with them. So I'll probably bring my cocoa to computer there because I want to see

01:04:44: if I can get it. I want to install a mod so that I can display more than just the,

01:04:53: the R signal that's there. But, and then two weeks or sorry, three weeks from now at the

01:05:01: last Saturday of each month, we have an Amiga meet where we set up Amiga's generally. But it's the,

01:05:12: but any computer can be brought in and we'll be happy to help if you have problems with it,

01:05:19: or if you just want to say hi. So we'll put links to all of that in the show. So if you're in

01:05:25: Berlin or the Berlin area, just drop by or drop by the VCFB, which is a year from now, I guess,

01:05:32: this along quite a long time to the next VCFB, I reckon, but all the other stuff is happening.

01:05:38: And if you want to read anything about retro media in general, it is probably a good idea to

01:05:45: look at golem.de. I'm not sure how many people who listen to this are Germans. I'm not even sure

01:05:53: where this podcast is going to fit in the whole podcast thing that I'm doing, but we'll find out

01:05:58: together. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you, Richard, and see you next time.